Curse

HigherMinion · Jan 12, 2012, 11:15 AM // 11:15

One hex removal on a team with two Dervish, to me, seems a complete waste. In dangerous hexy mobs, there are always a stack of hexes, or quickly replaced ones. That is why I saw it pointless to add.

Still umming and arring about a Dom mes over Shatterstone or Thunderfap; but if I do, I can take Shatter Hex, at least.

An ER ele over the ST means no spirit wall, no offensive spirit option and lack of damage. The ER could roll with 10 prot 10 smite 15 ES and take SoH and remove hex, though.

How about:
ES 14
Smiting 12
Prot 8

Prot Spirit, Spirit Bond, Remove Hex, Aegis, Strength of Honor, Ether Renewal, Aura of Restoration.

aspi · Jan 12, 2012, 03:39 PM // 15:39

If anything I would change the thunderclap hero, just tried a simple luxon VQ and didn't get the impression this bar helped a lot, while I could see the water ele freezing foes.
I'm gonna try watertrident next instead of shatterstone.

HigherMinion · Jan 12, 2012, 06:24 PM // 18:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by aspi

If anything I would change the thunderclap hero, just tried a simple luxon VQ and didn't get the impression this bar helped a lot, while I could see the water ele freezing foes.
I'm gonna try watertrident next instead of shatterstone.

How did you find the overall survivability/massive damage power of the team? Obviously the role of damage comes from Splinter/MoP and the dervs, so the main point of the eles are support. I argree Air could be changed to Panic or eSurge since I already have Cracked Armour coming from Aura Slicer and Domination has better rupts... I can take Shatter Hex and *try* and slot NS/FB, if attributes permit.

So, any comments on the ER smite bar?

Daesu · Jan 12, 2012, 07:40 PM // 19:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

So, any comments on the ER smite bar?

Looks ok. I love enchantments when I am working with my derv because of windwalker so try reverse hex instead of remove hex.

HigherMinion · Jan 12, 2012, 08:18 PM // 20:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Looks ok. I love enchantments when I am working with my derv because of windwalker so try reverse hex instead of remove hex.

If I'm going to have two hex removals only, for two melee characters, I want short recharges. That's what I was thinking. There are enough enchants for Windwalkers to do their bit. SoH and Sand Shards maintained. There is also the choice of swapping Radiant Scythe for Zealous Renewal.

Soryuju · Jan 12, 2012, 09:01 PM // 21:01

I've never had issues running FB on a Domination Mesmer, personally. On a Dom Mes not running FB, I usually go for 15/16 Domination magic with a 9+1 spec in both Fast Casting and Inspiration. When I put FB on the bar, I drop both FC and Inspiration to 8+1 and spec 7 in Command. Energy is obviously tighter than when you're running a build without FB, but Power Drain and WNWN still do a nice job of keeping you from running out. While the 7 spec in Command provides a bit less uptime for FB than some other classes might be able to offer, I feel that the Domination skills you're getting are worth trading a couple seconds of IMS for. Can't say I'd recommend taking Never Surrender on the bar, but with the increased shutdown potential you'd be getting, you might not need it.

Daesu · Jan 12, 2012, 09:36 PM // 21:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

If I'm going to have two hex removals only, for two melee characters, I want short recharges. That's what I was thinking. There are enough enchants for Windwalkers to do their bit. SoH and Sand Shards maintained. There is also the choice of swapping Radiant Scythe for Zealous Renewal.

Yes it is not a big deal to use this or that. They are only 2s recharge difference though.

You want at least 4 enchantments to be active at the same time for max windwalker armor boost. Otherwise you can just go with blessed insignia. This is partly why I recommended bringing an ER and Orders. ER synergizes with enchantments with orders also acting as enchant cover for the common enchant removers.

You can also bring spells like Blood Bond on your Orders. If you want more skill with enchantment synergy you can try to fit in Dwayna's Kiss or Signet of Removal, not necessary but nice to have.

Kaida the Heartless · Jan 12, 2012, 09:51 PM // 21:51

As someone who ran Physway before the Barbs update, in my experience, R/P Spearchucker/Beastmasters provided the best combination of damage output, survivability, and MoP/Barbs procs. Used Heal as One for the Elite. Unfortunately, I don't have any screenshots, but the build worked so well that a friend and I beat Duncan within hours of his update. I recommend you test them out too!

For the build you have there, I would drop the Elementalists for a Minion Master and another Dervish, and I would swap the IV/Resto to Orders/Resto. Another option would be an Orders/Smite and make the third Dervish and Avatar of Dwayna Derv (works with minions too). AoD will make the Dervish do Holy Damage, but I feel the pros outweigh the cons in that situation. You might even be able to use Bone Fiends since you've got your front line; they help with MoP/Barbs procs and do some serious damage now that the Armor Levels of mobs have been reduced. I would make these changes because I really like to push the effectiveness of MoP/Barbs when I run it and I feel as though Minion Masters are pretty indispensable in most areas.

Wenspire · Jan 12, 2012, 11:28 PM // 23:28

Quick question for you folks... I tend to see a high emphasis on the use of FallBack, and often having multiple copies of it. Is there some hidden benefit to having this skill other than shortening times during VQing and possibly to speed up minion movement? I would think that it would not be important in things like HM Dungeons and some most Elite missions.

Xenomortis · Jan 12, 2012, 11:32 PM // 23:32

A party wide speed buff will reduce run times and has uses in retreating if things go bad.

Wenspire · Jan 12, 2012, 11:48 PM // 23:48

I can understand the shortening of run times especially in VQing. However, it just seems like most group setups maximize on offense and have the minimal amount of defense where retreating shouldn't be even considered. Wouldn't it be better to use those slots/points so that you wouldn't even have to worry about that? Seems counter-productive. Though, I can still understand the benefits of FB for areas that have a lot of idle time going on.

IchibanK · Jan 13, 2012, 12:03 AM // 00:03

I always thought the main benefit was to make it easier for your backline to get away from any melee breaking through. Especially in hard mode where they move faster. Should allow you to kite until they break aggro.

Maybe with spirits and minions this shouldn't be happening - but I'm still pretty new and I'm finding it helps tremendously.

Kaida the Heartless · Jan 13, 2012, 12:54 AM // 00:54

Offense is preferred because it makes clear times much faster. You CAN stack defense but it becomes a slow crawl through areas that shouldn't take that much time to clear. "Fall Back!" is good for players with strong game sense; you use it and retreat before you take loses and re-engage the opponent under a more favorable pull. Basically, the defense the party needs comes from favorable engagements/pulls, not just skills. Offense is the best defense, etc. Am I making sense?

Besides, "Fall Back!" is an amazing skill in itself and it comes in the same line as "Stand Your Ground!", which isn't nearly as necessary, but is still strong.

Chthon · Jan 13, 2012, 03:49 AM // 03:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

So, any comments on the ER smite bar?

1. Zealot's Fire now that fire damage does something?

2. Despite the recharge difference, I favor Convert Hexes since it clears the whole stack.

-----

In other news, there was an AI update. Makes me wonder about maybe using Double Dragon or Stone Sheath to reinforce the dervs.

Lanier · Jan 13, 2012, 05:07 AM // 05:07

If the hero AI was updated, I would use one or two double cast eles over your current eles (Double Dragon and Stone Sheath would be the builds I would choose). Don't use panic, as some have suggested.

I also would use a minion master. The mm is the first character to go into my team build because it is so good on offense with death nova and drastically reduces the need for active defense. IMO, look at replacing the ST with a mm.

I also never quite understood the point of bringing fall backs. Sure, it will cut down on time between mobs, but fall back in no way optimizes a build by ensuring faster kills, and when it comes to optimization, what matters is time it takes to kill a mob, not the time it takes to run between them. Using fall back to retreat from mobs isn't going to optimize time either, and if you're at the point where you're trying to milk every second off your killing time, then you should already have established a sufficient defense and pulling technique.

HigherMinion · Jan 13, 2012, 06:08 AM // 06:08

After trying ER in a few VQs, it's alot weaker than ST. You lose bodies, you are weakened heavily by ER downtime; the AI facks up more, etc. Using it to maintain SoH and carry Remove Hex was the only reason I wanted it. Apparently +2 regen isn't enough. Zzzz.

Not sure about Double Dragon... What's the damage like when only one copy hits?

Ok, this is now the, most likely, final edit. It is complete. I have tested it now in a few dungeons and vanquishes. I will try Slaver's later to make sure it's strong enough. I will update the main post with the update, but will keep the old bar for reference.

I still want opinions on this.

Can't be arsed uploading it again, but so you know, the dom attributes are 14 Dom, 10 Insp, 9 Command, 9 FC ; energy req on that build is high.

Daesu · Jan 13, 2012, 09:40 AM // 09:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

After trying ER in a few VQs, it's alot weaker than ST. You lose bodies, you are weakened heavily by ER downtime; the AI facks up more, etc. Using it to maintain SoH and carry Remove Hex was the only reason I wanted it. Apparently +2 regen isn't enough. Zzzz.

Too bad the ER didnt work out for you. For some reason, the ER worked out better for me than your ST rit. At least with the ER, I can micro PS if I needed to. On the other hand, I noticed that your rit's Shelter undergoes recharge sometimes and that messes with my protection.

On the other hand, I am liking the Stone Shealth ele that I am bringing along.

HigherMinion · Jan 13, 2012, 10:00 AM // 10:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Too bad the ER didnt work out for you. For some reason, the ER worked out better for me than your ST rit. At least with the ER, I can micro PS if I needed to. On the other hand, I noticed that your rit's Shelter undergoes recharge sometimes and that messes with my protection.

On the other hand, I am liking the Stone Shealth ele that I am bringing along.

Consider the reason you require Stone Sheath the fact Prot Spirit cannot be everywhere. The problems I was having with PS and not Shelter was the buff to Shatterstone and Mind Burn were both raping my party when I didn't space out enough. I didn't have that problem with ST, and as Xeno points out, you get at least two uses out of ST before it may or may not, depending on if you attempt to micro, fall into recharge. I have 4 spirits on the bar now; Displacement, Shelter, Pain and Disenchantment. Having replaced Ice Spikes with Blurred Vision (because MoI is the only snare I will ever need), Shadowsong is pointless and it now is another energy skill, as it was lacking before. Now it's safer and you can easily micro those two spirits you need and precast ST for the battle.

What you can't do with PS is maintain it on everyone; you have to spread around and waste time flagging everything. Also, Thought Destroyers strip enchants fast; very dangerous to depend on ER in those high-end areas where prots matter.

What are you using on your Stone Sheath build? It sounds like a wasted slot to me; minor damage and mitigation capabilities... So you can have Churning Earth, Obsidian Flame and Stone Sheath...

Jeydra · Jan 13, 2012, 10:52 AM // 10:52

I have close to no experience with this kind of teambuild, but I'll still suggest taking out the IV Resto and the MoI Water for two RoJ Smiters. They can bring one copy of SoH each, and two copies of Smite Hex as well. That frees up Shatter Hex on the Dom Mes for Shatter Enchant (you have no enchant removal right now). With two copies of Divine Healing on the Smiters, you probably don't need "Never Surrender!" as well and can use another Domination Magic skill instead. You lose a hard res, but since Smiters are fully capable of carrying "Fall Back!", you can just move the "Fall Back!" onto one Smiter and give the Mesmer a hard res.

I have a few bad memories from using two Death Pacts, but whatever works for you

Xenomortis · Jan 13, 2012, 02:39 PM // 14:39

I'm almost certain that's not going to give enough direct healing.